Curse

*lemming* · Mar 31, 2012, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't think your answer answered the question. Yes or no?

I think that the answer is closer to yes, but I'm not sure.

Missing HB · Mar 31, 2012, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

just let the game die? is it that hard? or would you rather play some defensive hero shit all day? remember tease mesmers? do people actually find playing with/against heroes fun?

It's not about playing any crap heroway, it's just about being able to do something quick and fun at anytime when i have less than 3 friends online( actually even when i do, i'm not guaranteed i'll be able to find an opponent...)

Then, if it's about heroes themselves, let's use henchmen from Heroes Ascent or Guild Hall. I don't guess these are really overpowered.... I think players would even be satisfied being able to take 7 zaishen henchmen to go in..

@ last posts : let's make a poll to see if players would rather have no opponents than heroways then ?

Elnino · Mar 31, 2012, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Instead of reintroducing heroes into pvp, why not let each of the current henchmen have 2/3 different, viable builds for us to choose from. This way there's a little more flexibility when running henchmen teams and none of the abuse that will surely come along with heroes.

Or we could just bring back those formats people used to play when there weren't enough people online to gvg/ha...................

Auron of Neon · Mar 31, 2012, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

It's not about playing any crap heroway, it's just about being able to do something quick and fun at anytime when i have less than 3 friends online

Heroes did not make PvP fun. Split-second interrupts on every spell, hero bars with 3-4 enchant strips to keep all ele attunes down, flawless hex spreading with no duplicate/wasted hexes on a target, flawless minion summoning (in metas with minions, which was most of them when heroes were around).

If you want more, lower-quality games, heroes are definitely the way to go. If you want higher quality games, by any definition, heroes are not. They effectively destroy what is supposed to be PvP by adding PvE mobs in - they have their flaws and perks, just as any AI boss mob in PvE does, but the skill interaction and hellacious gimmicks people bring on hero bars drive any PvP match with heroes into the ground.

Basically it's what lemming is alluding to - if the PvP match has heroes, it might as well not be a PvP match. It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's barely even PvP. At that point, simply not playing is a better option.

InStars · Mar 31, 2012, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfally

I'd love to have heroes back for atleast Zelite. So hard to find a group of people for that.

It's possible to do it henchway at reasonable speed.

Missing HB · Mar 31, 2012, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Heroes did not make PvP fun. Split-second interrupts on every spell, hero bars with 3-4 enchant strips to keep all ele attunes down, flawless hex spreading with no duplicate/wasted hexes on a target, flawless minion summoning (in metas with minions, which was most of them when heroes were around).

I would agree if PvP didn't get invaded by those bots that year that followed their delete... Syncers, boring metas, etc... I personnaly don't think it would make any diference today, heroes/hench parties would however let everyone play...

What the OP says isn't about replacing 2 henchs by 2 heroes, but the ability to go in with 7 heroes/henchs. Obviously, the first option wouldn't do anything toward inactivity...

But anyway, if it's about heroes being too OP( although they're not, and i know what i'm talking about : only half a dozen of players did manage to beat my build that had exactly 0 heal, too bad if players just want to run the same build over and over and call what they lose to overpowered...), i guess then taking those henchmen they addes would be cool ...

Sankt Hallvard · Mar 31, 2012, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Would people in the PvEer rating brackets (<1050) really enjoy getting beat up on by hero teams?

This proves top players/tk members/game balancers have lost all touch with reality. My guild is at 1031 rating atm and we've done nothing but gvg for 6 years. Same goes for the other guilds in the alliance, all in "pveer rating brackets". The only cases of pveers doing gvg that I know about is rating 800 for legit games and rating 200 with all the resign/forfeit bs.

There aren't any new pve'ers trying gvg. (I found the link you provided on guru with the guy teaching qstepping hilarious.) The plug in the bottom of the ladder has been pulled a long time ago. Now there are a handful of ladderguilds like my own and the same amount of smurf/reformers who start new guilds, farm them up, start losing to the true top 20 guilds, disband, repeat and feel good about themselves because after all their win:loss ratio is impressive.

Heroes destroyed pvp years ago, but now there's nothing left to destroy so who cares?

tealspikes · Mar 31, 2012, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Basically it's what lemming is alluding to - if the PvP match has heroes, it might as well not be a PvP match. It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's barely even PvP. At that point, simply not playing is a better option.

Most can generally agree that a game filled with humans is of better quality than one filled with bots, but to say it's never fun nor engaging is your opinion. I've had my share of horribly stupid annoying teaseways, but I've also had many enjoyable matches vs teams with heroes in GvG. There are existing players who would enjoy heroes if they are re-implemented in GvG, and there are potentially many more new players who would try the format if it had heroes.

The ones who would rather not play than play with heroes are either top players (which this change has little effect on) or the folks who left the game already. Who will this change scare away? Potentially some anti-hero players in the mid-level GvG? Oh wait, the mid-level doesn't really exist anymore. Low level players? Not only are they few in number currently, they're the ones with the thin guest list and the excruciating wait times, the ones who are forced to utilize henchmen on a regular basis, and the ones who are already accustomed to fighting against henchmen every other match.

Jeydra · Apr 01, 2012, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I think that the answer is closer to yes, but I'm not sure.

I think your answer is wrong.

Listen to the players who are in the < 1050 rating bracket on this one. Conduct a poll, if you will. See the results.

Elnino · Apr 01, 2012, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I think it's amazing that people seem to neglect that this would affect HA aswell.

Reverend Dr · Apr 01, 2012, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think your answer is wrong.

Listen to the players who are in the < 1050 rating bracket on this one. Conduct a poll, if you will. See the results.

They'd say one thing and then very quickly change their minds after seeing it in action.

Jeydra · Apr 01, 2012, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Or maybe they'd say one thing and then accuse ANet of being retarded for ever making the opposite decision.

Missing HB · Apr 01, 2012, 08:40 AM // 08:40

We can't deny the fact that the PvP population drop occured right after they removed heroes from PvP and deleted TA/HB though ( especially along months)..

Besides, i don't see how an inactive format could be better as a format with just heroes parties.. :
- if it's fun, then there will be lot of players
- if it's boring, then there will be no activity ( same as today )

If nothing is done at worse, then they should just ban those players abusing match manipulation... If noone can enter formats, why should someone using 6 accounts be able to do so and get his hero title that way ?

superraptors · Apr 01, 2012, 01:30 PM // 13:30

thats why this game has been dead for so long, kids that still want to play with ai rather than players.

lol @ saying pvp population dropped after they removed heroes, population dropped well before removal, it already started dropping rapidly during late 6v6 HA and early when eotn was released and several other periods.

and using titles as an argument is utter fail.

Qing Guang · Apr 01, 2012, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Iunno, I could see heroes maybe breathing a little life back into Codex Arena.

TkDj · Apr 03, 2012, 05:33 PM // 17:33

i have no problem playing with real people, just theres like 4 guilds that play, and its very very hard to find enough guests, and particularly those willing/can monk.

N E D M · Apr 04, 2012, 12:38 AM // 00:38

why have heroes on my pvp char if i cant use em
bring em back in some way

Missing HB · Apr 04, 2012, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TkDj

i have no problem playing with real people, just theres like 4 guilds that play, and its very very hard to find enough guests, and particularly those willing/can monk.

You can still add frohs and julyia to your team( you can have 4 henchs then..).. Let's say the problem here is NPC's ai( especially for frohs) and the inability to have 1 guy controlling 2 henchs, other 1 controlling other 2 ..

On GvG you need on theory 2 players to play the format, and it's not really a consecutive wins system, so it's still playable.. On the other hand, for places like HA/Codex or AB, i let you count the number of required players to make the place at least look active..

Shalazar · Apr 04, 2012, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I like this idea since if you just go to HA looking for a group it is unplayable. Even on the zaishen combat day when I tried to find a group a year ago nobody would take me since I was unranked. As you can tell by the "year ago" that sort of thing leaves such a bad taste that you never go back.

Even if a person with a hero team is really at a disadvantage maybe the super pro r999999 team might screw something up and forget to steamroll the nooby so hard they never come back.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

This proves top players/tk members/game balancers have lost all touch with reality. My guild is at 1031 rating atm and we've done nothing but gvg for 6 years. Same goes for the other guilds in the alliance, all in "pveer rating brackets". The only cases of pveers doing gvg that I know about is rating 800 for legit games and rating 200 with all the resign/forfeit bs.

There aren't any new pve'ers trying gvg. (I found the link you provided on guru with the guy teaching qstepping hilarious.) The plug in the bottom of the ladder has been pulled a long time ago. Now there are a handful of ladderguilds like my own and the same amount of smurf/reformers who start new guilds, farm them up, start losing to the true top 20 guilds, disband, repeat and feel good about themselves because after all their win:loss ratio is impressive.

Heroes destroyed pvp years ago, but now there's nothing left to destroy so who cares?

That's unsurprising though, people often have little experience with elo systems, so the first time they find themselves on an elo ladder that stops gaining players they fail to make the connection. It's a vicious circle too, less players playing lowers the mean rating, new players are expected to play against better players than anyone had to before, and everyone already playing has more experience than the people they faced when they started. All that adds up to make the environment more difficult for new players than it has ever been, which deters them from entering, which takes it back to step one, repeat. Elo systems that don't keep gaining players collapse on themselves.

On topic: I'd like to see hero teams for AB, it's not like anyone plays it or even took it seriously when it did get played.